ENCORE: Theology Matters: The Ministry of Wesleyan Accent
Elizabeth Glass-Turner is the Managing Editor of Wesleyan Accent.
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Rob Haynes 0:10
Welcome to World Methodist Evangelism’s Real Faith Real World podcast, where we connect the faith within us with the world around us. Now celebrating our 50th anniversary, World Methodist Evangelism desires for Christ’s followers within the global Wesleyan family to become agents of transformation by sharing the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. We accomplish this through training, gathering and resourcing to fulfill our mission to equip and encourage Christ followers around the world to share their faith in the context of today’s realities. My name is Rob Haynes of World Methodist Evangelism and I’m joined today by the managing editor of Wesleyan Accent, Elizabeth Glass-Turner; you’re in for a real treat as you get to know Elizabeth and her ministry. This podcast is made possible through the generosity of Christ Church Global in Memphis, Tennessee and we’re grateful for their support. We encourage you to rate and subscribe now wherever you get your podcast, that helps us get the word out about this and future episodes. Also, we encourage you to give us your feedback. You can reach us at podcast@WorldMethodist.org. There you can send your thoughts, ideas, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Also, be sure to check today’s show notes for all of our social media connections. Elizabeth Glass-Turner, the managing editor of Wesleyan Accent is passionate to help people understand that theology matters. With the proliferation of thoughts and information online, it is sometimes difficult to sift through and know what is a sound teaching and what should be avoided. Is it a good resource? Can the author be trusted? How can we know? As people who follow Jesus and the Wesleyan heritage what can we use as a sound tool to view the world through that lens? Elizabeth’s work on Wesleyan Accent, which is a ministry of World Methodist Evangelism, is through a faith-based online magazine that provides practical and theological resources for people, whether they are new Christians, whether they are academics, or perhaps they are seasoned clergy leaders. Wesleyan Accent has been around since 2013. When founding editors Maxie Dunnam and Kim Reisman launched it as a space for Wesleyan and Methodist thinking and collaboration. We welcome to the podcast Elizabeth Glass-Turner. Welcome Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 2:59
Rob Haynes 3:00
Help our listeners get to know you a little bit better. Tell us about yourself.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 3:05
Well, I was thinking the other day about how to do that and I thought I wished that I could show you all the inside of my mug cabinet. I have quite a collection that is a little bit of an artifact through history of my personal life. I have a mug from Asbury Seminary, I have an MA in theological studies from there. I have some quite large coffee mugs which go well with my work as a writer and editor. And for quite a while I had a lot of church mugs that places gave me when I would visit when I was speaking as a campus minister. So they capture a lot of different points of where I’ve been.
Rob Haynes 3:53
Well, that’s wonderful. I wish that we could take a look at your coffee mugs because I know that as a writer and an editor I’m sure that you need to stay well caffeinated.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 4:03
Rob Haynes 4:05
So tell us a little bit about your work with Wesleyan Accent, that’s why we’ve asked you on the show today.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 4:11
Yes, I’ve been managing editor of Wesleyan Accent for several years. And I love working with the variety of contributors that we have. And we get to engage with scholars and pastors and church leaders who approach faith from a broadly Wesleyan Methodist perspective. It’s a lot of fun asking for a lot of different kinds of submissions and reading the variety of voices and interests that people bring with them to their work.
Rob Haynes 4:52
So before we get too deep into exactly what Wesleyan Accent is, tell us why we need something like Wesleyan Accent.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 5:01
I think that I actually can boil that down to two words, I think, which is theology matters.
Rob Haynes 5:09
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 5:10
Yeah, theology matters. The Internet is a little bit of the Wild West, right? You get spiritual resources are no different from any other resource online. And so among what I might call vetted material or sources, the kind of thing published by known or recognizable organizations and that kind of thing, there’s a lot of reformed and Baptist content, there’s a lot of Catholic content. In English, if you go online and search, you know, Galatians Two, or the topic of faith or whatever, there’s a lot of reformed and Catholic offerings and that’s great from an ecumenical perspective. At the same time, you know, Maxie Dunnam, came along and said, I think that there’s space here as well for voices from the Wesleyan Methodist tradition, to articulate a rich creedal Wesleyan Methodist theology on a variety of topics. And so denominations like the Nazarene church, or United Methodist Church, the Wesleyan church, they all have their niches and their online resources, academic institutions are the same, they have their alumni audiences. And sometimes they can be a bit siloed. And so there is some space to elevate and amplify Wesleyan Methodist perspectives online. So I think we can have an ecumenical spirit and appreciate the resources that are out there from other points of view but we can also celebrate and value what we bring to the table and what those distinctives are. Wesleyan Accent helps to round out the resources that are in that online real estate. I think that theology matters and Wesleyan Methodist theology matters, no matter what you’re addressing, there is a distinct point of view. I think we also need it because we need connection and that’s nothing new but I think that this past year we have realized that in a new way, how much we need connection. Pastors, lay people, professors often tend to be siloed in their own denominations or in their own alumni groups. I think that cross fertilization across denominational lines and across academic lines and congregational lines, I think that’s really valuable. So I see it as well as an opportunity for people in different Wesleyan Methodist tribes to be able to hear each other speak.
Rob Haynes 8:19
That’s really helpful. I wonder if we can go back and unpack one of the terms that you used a minute ago and that’s a rich creedal resource. What do you mean by that? Help us understand that just a little bit more.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 8:33
Yeah, there are a lot of devotional resources online or in print in church foyers and those are great. We want to be able to appreciate those and at the same time dig a little deeper for people who are curious. We want to provide things, both from pastors and also from professors and bring out a rich perspective of something like church history or something like John Wesley’s sermons or that kind of thing in an accessible, approachable way. And creedal, I just mean grounded in the basic core traditions of the Christian faith that some of those ecumenical groups I mentioned earlier would agree on. You know, you can line up a Calvinist and a Catholic and a Wesleyan Methodist, and all say Apostle’s Creed, and so rooted in that very rich resource of church tradition. We recognize that we don’t have the only branch of the Christian faith out there. We’re one branch of the Christian faith and there are some core things we agree on with other people like the Creed. And then kind of out of that basis, what then are our distinctives? And what do we bring to the table to share with others, the way that their perspectives sometimes help, shape and inform ours?
Rob Haynes 10:25
Oh, great, I appreciate you unpacking that just a little bit. So what I heard you say then is theology matters is one of the things that really drives Wesleyan Accent, an ecumenical spirit and doing that in a way that brings voices that are leaders in their field. These are people that have studied and thought about these things. And not just someone who is kind of flying off the handle or just flying by night whenever they write something, these are folks who know their stuff, as they’re published. Is that right?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 11:02
Yes and I think that appreciating and valuing the significance of theology, that doesn’t mean you have to be a theologian to read or appreciate or understand it. Someone can share a sermon. We have sermons occasionally online and you may hear a sermon from them and think, where was the mention of John Wesley? Where was the mention of something I thought I would hear, I thought that this was supposed to be Methodist? They never used the word Methodist in this sermon but it’s a sermon maybe, for instance, about God’s grace from a Wesleyan Methodist perspective, maybe it’s a sermon about suffering and free will and that would be a Wesleyan Methodist distinctive. You don’t have to be a theologian to appreciate or learn from our resources, but the people that we draw from are people who will bring that perspective to bear with whatever topic they’re addressing.
Rob Haynes 12:17
Sure. Well the blogosphere is large and growing, particularly here in the midst of the pandemic. As we see more and more things pushed out online, in that unique space, what unique role does Wesleyan Accent play?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 12:36
Well, I think that one of our contributions is that we’ve been around for a while, we’ve changed addresses a couple of times, we’ve been on air so to speak for a while and so we have actually developed a pretty rich archive. And I, this may sound nerdy, I enjoy going back through our archives and seeing some of the topics that we’ve addressed, seen some of the voices and perspectives. It is like going up into an attic and rooting through and finding treasures that you didn’t know were there, that you forgot were there. So I think one of the things that we bring to bear right now is that we have a variety of topics, from both academics and from clergy, from bishops or district superintendents, we’ve begun, just begun, to scratch the surface of expanding a little bit into Spanish resources as well as English. And so anything from church history to spiritual formation, leadership, worship and liturgy, Biblical studies, pastoral care, devotionals, philosophy of religion, vocation, means of grace. We’ve got categories, if you want to look and say what’s categorized with the gospel of Mark, I’m preaching out of Mark, they have anything that have insights on the gospel of Mark you know, you can go and look. So I think that archive is a valuable resource because it’s been building up for years from a variety of voices and influences from the Wesleyan Church to AME Zion to CME and United Methodist Church. I have a contributor who’s a Scottish pastor in the Church of the Nazarene who’s serving a congregation in Switzerland and his congregation is very international. We also have contributors who are linked with World Methodist Evangelism as well. I think that in this particular moment so many pastors are absolutely exhausted. There are ideas for sermons, there are insights for when your tapped dry and your well is running low and you are looking for new resources and you want to bring another voice or another tool to your toolbox. We’ve covered a lot of different things — there’s one of my favorite examples to mention, we have articles on things like funeral homilies and that kind of thing and I really enjoy contrasting that with one particular piece by a Christian philosopher of religion on animal resurrection. And saying, if God redeems suffering, what do we do with animal suffering? It’s so fascinating. You may say, “What on earth does that have to do with ministry and COVID?” Well, it’s beautifully reasoned but it also deals very tenderly with questions of loss and grief and suffering from someone who also has had personal experience. So there’s such a range in our archives and I think that that is particularly valuable right now.
Rob Haynes 16:47
Well that’s really interesting because if theology matters, then theology matters about all sorts of things.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 16:55
Rob Haynes 16:55
Not just, you know, preparing the sermon maybe?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 17:00
Absolutely. Absolutely. There is theology on every mug printed in a Christian bookstore.
Rob Haynes 17:10
And every post on Facebook sometimes.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 17:13
Yes, yes and it runs through things the way that physics runs through the fabric of the Universe in space and time. There’s no part of life that isn’t affected by how we think of God and how we think that God has revealed the divine nature to us. I think that a lot of people are tired of the artificial categories of work life, church life, that kind of thing. I remember reading a description a few years ago about living a one-piece life, a life that is seamless. I enjoy that mental image and so Wesleyan Methodist theology matters.
Rob Haynes 18:12
Yeah. Okay, so what a beautiful image that you gave us there, about as physics runs through everything so does theology which leads me to my next question. If someone’s listening now, and they say, “Look, Elizabeth, I’m not a pastor. I’m not a writer. I don’t have coffee mugs from all these different churches in my cabinet. Is Wesleyan accent for me, and if so how?”
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 18:39
That is a great question. It’s interesting being in digital space because it’s a bit like having a storefront on Main Street where anyone can come in and so yeah, most of our audience is going to be pastors, or academics, or lay people, lay leaders, Sunday school teachers, whoever. Sometimes people stumble on the website because their pastor writes for us and they read something that their pastor shares. At the same time, we’re online and anybody can walk into our store and so we have a range and I think that on the one hand that’s a challenge, because we have resources that will intrigue thoughtful lay people, professors, but our audience also includes church members and so quite a spread. At the same time, I think that whether you have never walked into a church in your life there will be something there for you and if you have two PhDs and you met John Wesley in person in a time machine, there will be something there for you. There are accessible resources. Reverend Andy Stoddard has such a great approachable way of of writing and contributing, Reverend Karen Bates as well, Reverend Edgar Bazan as well. These are people that I would say if you have never been to church before, go to their church and listen to them preach and if you’ve never cracked open a Bible. At the same time, if you have been tenured teaching in a seminary for 20 years, there will be resources for you. There are contributors and scholars like Dr. Jackson Leasure, Dr. Brian Wyke, Dr. Jordan Moore, who bring very incisive, rich insights and I think we do live in a time where we need theologically shaped lay people and clergy or occasionally shaped scholars. I think that the divide between the pew anatomy is not helpful. I don’t think we have any reason to surrender the spiritual Wesleyan Methodists to whatever is on the shelves in the store or to whatever is trending, which may be Baptist or prosperity gospel or pantheism. We have something valuable to share and to bring to the table. And I think that any scholar who’s invested in the health life of local churches, and any pastor or lay leader who’s thoughtful, and anybody who, whether they are a believer or not, there are resources there for them as well.
Rob Haynes 22:10
I think you again brought a really great point, we need theologically shaped congregations.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 22:21
Yeah, we need theologically shaped lay people and pastors and we need congregationally shaped scholars.
Rob Haynes 22:30
Because sometimes, again, those ideas of silos, if we get in those silos we don’t ever cross with anything else. And if you sit in a silo, you go stale.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 22:40
You do and not only that but theology has to be able to work out in practice, it absolutely has to be able to be relevant to the 7-Eleven worker who just walked in off the street and sat in the back pew, in a time of, you know, vaccines, or whatever. But you could say the random social media happens to join your service that’s broadcast virtually on Sundays right now, you know, either way, theology has to matter where the rubber meets the road. If it doesn’t, it’s not good theology, and you need to go back to the drawing board. If you cannot translate it, and it doesn’t matter how esoteric it is, it doesn’t matter if it’s aesthetics of Aquinas, if you translate it in a way that matters to the people in the pews, then it’s a triple up and it’s not going to bear fruit and good theology bears fruit. Good theology bears fruit in the local church and good theology bears fruit out of lay people. And it is not a hot-house tender bonsai tree that you trim precisely but won’t live out in a ramshackle garden. It has to matter at the local level. And so that cross over is important because theologians are better theologians when they have to answer questions in a sanctuary with 1970s carpet and it’s still and so it’s doable.
Rob Haynes 24:40
So let’s talk about that part of making it practical. If I’m somebody who’s not a pastor or something like that, how do I put the principles of Wesleyan Accent into practice in my daily life and work if I’m the person at 7-Eleven or if I’m a CEO of a major company but I don’t have the same sort of theological education as my pastor. So how do I use this?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 25:10
Yeah, I think that a lot of our pieces, and you know, you can look through the topics on the sidebar on the website, a lot of our pieces give examples and help share and spell out what that might look like in someone’s life, especially our archives of sermons. There’s often a pragmatic edge to them, what does this look like in your life? A lot of our resources have that built in and for me, I have found that sometimes the Holy Spirit will tug my attention to something that I forgot was ever published on the website. I look at that and I can read it one year and take something particular away from it, Holy Spirit may be working in my heart in a particular way, and read it again a year or two later and I take something else away from it. God puts a different point on my heart for where I am at that time. I think that God is good at applying what our appetites can manage at a particular moment. We all have a capacity to grow and deepen, that’s any spiritual formation. I like that we have resources that will hit people differently depending on where they are in their spiritual journey, or where they are in their reading or Bible study or spiritual growth. There are things that they will find helpful or intriguing. I think that a lot of our resources are equipped to in particular show some possible applications. I also think that where someone is in their particular journey, we have things in a variety of places for people. Even this year, in 2020, you look and people who usually are confident, or with it or together, or who are fairly confident in their spiritual life have been absolutely thrown for a loop. There are people who are grappling with multiple crises and are experiencing their walk with God in a way they’ve never had to experience it before. And nobody is immune to that. It doesn’t matter if you have a PhD, sometimes you need a pastor, a chaplain, sometimes people who have been in ministry for 30 years need to sit and read something from a pastor of a small church because it has an insight that Holy Spirit can plant and grow. I think that there’s been some disruption that a lot of our leaders are finding refuge in very simple things right now because that’s really all you have the capacity for when your energy is drained. I’m excited about what we have to offer to people whether they have ever picked up a Christian book in their life or not.
Rob Haynes 29:15
Well, that’s great, so it’s for everybody. Anyone would have something on there, no matter where you are, there’s something as a resource for people of all different ages and stations and places on their walk with Christ. One important question I think to cover is, is it free or is there a paywall? I mean, do I have to subscribe? How does all that work?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 29:42
You can subscribe to get email updates when new things are posted but there is no paywall. I am so happy to say that. I respect and understand organizations that need to institute that, but oh the frustration of a paywall. It is free. This is a resource that is funded by a faith-based nonprofit and we are happy to provide these resources. And again, there’s freedom and independence there, we’re not tied to one denomination or to one organization only, we’re able to reach across into those silos and bring people together. It’s just WesleyanAccent.com is the address. For a while we were perched over at Seedbeds website and for a while we were perched on the World Methodist Evangelism website, but we’re just at our own domain now WesleyanAccent.com. There are a lot of great resources, everything from Charles Wesley hymns to anxiety to the book of Isaiah. Those are there and free, there’s no subscription, there’s no weird marketing of your email address. You want updates, you can get updates. We don’t stalk you. We don’t ask you for money. It is what it is and that I think is refreshing.
Rob Haynes 31:26
That’s great, WesleyanAccent.com, we’ll put that in the show notes and, of course, we link to Wesleyan Accent from the World Methodist Evangelism site as well. If someone is listening and is interested in writing for you do you accept new submissions? What kind of qualifications do they need to have?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 31:45
We are always accepting queries and we’re always looking for potential contributors. If you are a pastor, or a professor, or a church leader in a Wesleyan Methodist denomination, and you think, oh man, I don’t know, I don’t have publishing experience and I don’t know if they would accept my stuff, send it, it doesn’t hurt to send it. It may be a good fit. It’s interesting to me that sometimes people who think that their writing skills are really polished and honed aren’t necessarily, or have had a lot of editing go into it, and other people who are very fearful of the thought of being published sometimes we have to edit the least, they just turn in remarkable beautiful stuff. So it doesn’t matter whether you have a publishing background, and it doesn’t matter if you’re from outside of the United States, I wanted to mention that. We do publish in English, I read English, but we’re expanding a little bit into Spanish. I know that there are dozens of Wesleyan Methodist denominations outside of North America. No matter where you are, if you’re a pastor or an academic, if you’re from a Wesleyan Methodist background and you think that the rich creedal tradition of the faith describes where you are, by all means, I’m happy to read it and look over it. If English is a second language, I don’t think that has to be a problem. I already do a lot of editing and I wouldn’t want that to prevent anybody from submitting something if English is a second language. The email is editor@WesleyanAccent.com, feel free to send something and it might be a good fit and it might not, but you don’t have anything to lose. I remember being so nervous thinking about sending something to be published or seeing my things published, but I love watching people get excited when they see their contribution go live. It’s fun, you know, the work you’ve done with them to get to that point. It’s a lot of fun. We have contributors from Wesleyan United Methodist, Nazarene, AME, Zion, I think CME and United Methodist Church of course as well. And so I’m happy to invite people to submit something. This year in particular with all of the upheaval, people who are normally fairly regular contributors have just been hammered with all of the pivots. You know everybody’s pivoting the whole time and so we’re always looking for people as well when some of our regular contributors are saying, “Look, I got four funerals this week, or digital service didn’t go right. I didn’t meet my deadline.” We’re always happy to look for people who can help fill in.
Rob Haynes 35:43
That’s great. And what an important reminder that we can be gracious in all of that in our writing process as we really all strive together to share with others that theology matters and how we share that matters as well. That’s what a great insight you have there Elizabeth. Before we let you go today, I want to ask you about a portion of our show that we call “What I Found” and this is something that we ask our guests to let us know about, it can be a podcast, it could be a blog like Wesleyan Accent, could be a book, a TV show or something like that, that has encouraged them or helped them think or brought them a little bit deeper in their own faith journey. So I’m going to ask you, Elizabeth, what have you found?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 36:38
Yeah, I don’t know if these are the answers you’re looking for.
Rob Haynes 36:46
Go for it.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 36:47
I have found, like many people this year, I’ve noted multiple people who are usually voracious readers comment that they have struggled to get into books in the same way and I had found myself in a similar position. And then I picked up a book one day that is not faith-based at all. Sometimes, if you are neck deep in ministry or seminary life or whatever, sometimes it’s good to just stop for a few minutes and recharge, and you know, all truth is God’s truth. There is beauty in a lot of different things. I picked up the Elephants of Style, which is a play on words of the elements of style and it is by an editor of a large, well-known newspaper, on writing and on style and form. I found myself enjoying it so much, it was such a palate cleanser. I think that if people are in need of a palate cleanser, where you don’t want anything stressful or challenging because you’ve got enough of that on your plate already, if you want something light, you want something funny, that kind of thing. And I’m having fun giving a blurb for a book on improving writing, right? We can all do that, we can all improve our communication, as our communication is key in how we serve the kingdom of God. But I wouldn’t even put that kind of obligatory asterisk to it, sometimes it’s okay just to enjoy something for its own sake. So honestly what I found, I found that I needed to step away from the heat of the faith-based atmospheres that I was needing to engage in, because there’s a lot of heat coming off of stuff this year and just enjoy something that’s kind of back to the basics. And then what I found, actually this might sound kind of funny, I don’t know if anybody ever cites this in in their resources, I follow a few people on Twitter that I love. A couple of them have books coming out soon that I’m really excited about. One is Tish Harrison Warren, she’s an Anglican pastor and writer and she has a great book coming out this winter based on a part of the Daily Office readings for the evenings: Those Who Watch or Wait or Weep. Another person that I love following is Esau McCaulley, a New Testament scholar, who just wrote a book that’s out and I think being re-printed, Reading While Black, on engaging scripture from a particular perspective. I find myself absolutely enthralled with Makoto Fujimura and his work on faith in the arts and he also happens to have a new book coming out on art and faith, The Theology of Making. He’s a phenomenal painter and artist who puts exquisite care into artwork that he has done to accompany the Gospels. I have found those voices engaging in life giving and I’m looking forward to reading the fruit of their labors.
Oh, that’s really, really interesting and helpful. I love the broad perspective of that. And my What I Found relates to that and this idea of theology matters in everything that we do, back to that idea of physics. It’s a book called Every Moment Holy. Are you familiar with this?
Rob Haynes 41:12
This was published in Nashville, Tennessee by Rabbit Room Press.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 41:21
I have heard of them. Is that Jonathan Rogers? I think he’s associated with them.
Rob Haynes 41:45
It could be, but Andrew Peterson the musician is one of the ones who is really tied into that. They have daily liturgies that you can use, morning, midday and break as often but then they have liturgies for labor and vocation. So here’s one: a liturgy for preparation of a meal. The hurried preparation of a meal, the keeping of Bs for students and scholars, for fiction writers, for changing of diapers — part one and two, for watching a sunset, for the first snow, before consuming media, for competitors, for the ritual of morning coffee. I mean, I’m just reading a sample here. For dating.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 42:05
Liturgy for the first now and liturgy for the first coffee of the morning is beautiful. That reminds me of some of the prayers that go along with Celtic Christianity.
Rob Haynes 42:50
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 42:51
Yeah, prayers for attending the fire.
Rob Haynes 42:54
That’s right. Yeah, the first hearth fire of the season, before taking the stage, before eating a meal alone. I love the way that they’ve taken every moment and consider that it can be holy, in that there aren’t the siloing sorts of things. So it’s called Every Moment Holy published by Rabbit Room Press and McKelvey is the editor of that. It’s just a really great work that we’ve enjoyed in our family as we even did the liturgy before we decorated the house for Christmas, so very good.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 43:33
Rob Haynes 43:34
So Elizabeth I hope that you enjoy that or can check that out. Elizabeth, if people have questions or comments, how can they get in touch with you? How can they follow you on social media?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 43:46
You know, I long for the day that I can own a carrier pigeon. I think that would be an amazing way to receive correspondence.
Rob Haynes 43:55
An owl perhaps or something like that?
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 43:58
Yes, yes, by owl. Until that happy day comes, people can email me at editor@WesleyanAccent.com. And we also have a Wesleyan Accent Twitter presence and Facebook presence as well.
Rob Haynes 44:18
Well, Elizabeth Glass-Turner, managing editor of Wesleyan Accent, thank you for being a part of Real Faith Real World.
Elizabeth Glass-Turner 44:25
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Rob Haynes 44:27
What a joy to learn from Elizabeth about her passion for helping other people understand that theology matters. You can find the links to the things we discussed in today’s show notes. Let us hear from you, you can write to us at podcast@WorldMethodist.org. You can reach us on all our social media connections there in the show notes, you can also reach me on social media at Dr. Rob Haynes. Our thanks again to Christ Church Global for sponsoring this episode. I’m Rob Haynes and you’ve been listening to WME’s Real Faith, Real World podcast.
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